Write Out Loud Replay: S01E10 The Little Details

Write Out Loud - The Details - S01 E10

Matt Cassem: Welcome everybody to Writing Out Loud. Just kidding. Welcome everybody. 

Christina Trevaskis: Sometime I think you should like leave some of these intros in that were mistakes and us laughing because you know what? It's

Matt Cassem: enjoyable. It is enjoyable. Welcome everybody to Write Out Loud. That's the name of this podcast.

And it's the one that you chose to listen to so I should probably get the name right. My name's Matt Cassem and this is...

Christina Trevaskis: Tina! 

Matt Cassem: Tina! The lovely, the magnificent, the wonderful, the brilliant, Tina. 

Christina Trevaskis: Oh! 

Matt Cassem: I know. 

Christina Trevaskis: I should have you mix up your intros more often. I think I got more compliments than ever. 

Matt Cassem: Well, you know.

You're worth complimenting, darling. Oh, goodness, goodness. So I'm excited because I think we found a topic again this week. You know, again, we're talking about Heartstopper. We're talking about writing and how this all comes together. But what I really, really, really thought was kind of interesting was we talked about getting into the minutia.

The little tiny details that aren't actually part of the story and yet they drive the story because they don't, they're not front and center, right? They're those things in the background that just sort of happen that just sort of add a little bit of color and flavor to the story and bring it to life even that much more.

And sometimes they influence you without you realizing them. So what I'm referring to is just those tiny details. Right. And I know you and I have had conversations about some of these in the past, just based on things we've found. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. 

Matt Cassem: I found a Buzzfeed article from Tessa Fahey that is the "33 Heartstopper details that are small and clever, but you might've missed them the first time."

I think what's really cool about this, we're not necessarily gonna go through it all and, you know, top bottom, we're just going to talk about a few of the ones that really kind of stood out to us. And I think also then relate that back to how do you, I mean, this is a show, right? You can do things like that with a visual medium.

Christina Trevaskis: Right. 

You can also do it with writing. I mean, it's, it's, if you think about again, your favorite books, your favorite series. The ones you read over and over again. I know one of your favorites is Harry Potter. 

Matt Cassem: Yes. 

Christina Trevaskis: You think about the things that you remember that aren't necessarily plot points or character.

The little details that stand out to you are usually the things that are added, you know, later. But the little details are really just The little cursive , thing at the end of a sentence, you know, just a little flourish calligraphy, what have you, it's, it's what makes it stand out.

To the reader. 

Matt Cassem: Yeah, it's the confetti. 

Christina Trevaskis: And like I said, your favorite. It's the what 

Matt Cassem: the confetti at the party. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yes, 

Matt Cassem: Right. The pop of the champagne cork. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yes!

Yep. It is that thing that just makes you quote the line. You know, the detail that makes you go, Oh, my God, how brilliant is this writer? It's so funny that, Yeah.

You know, we should bring this up because I had an edit over the weekend that we got to chatting about one particular thing. And that was the hero's nickname for the heroine and like, she let it there. It happened. And then it was like she kind of used it randomly. I'm like, no, use it on purpose. Use it in a way that like the audience is going to take away.

Oh, my God, you know, this is the cutest nickname ever instead of sweetheart, darling, babe, those, it was. this thing that made it stand out from the rest. That's the kind of details, we're going to be talking about. The things that just make whatever it is stand out just a little bit more.

It's the exclamation point on the end of the sentence. 

Matt Cassem: Absolutely. I love it. Yeah. One of the things you had sent to me, and this is actually number one on the list the tree on the Truham school uniform, right? Actually blossoms as the seasons change and as the romance kind of blossoms, which is a really fun little detail.

Right. And again, it just kind of draws your attention without even realizing that it's doing that. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. 

Matt Cassem: And just kind of makes that feel a little bit more like. You're watching everything grow. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yes. And the thing is, is that I think I read it on Tumblr somewhere. Someone said, Hey, anybody noticed this?

And then you know, upon one of my other rewatchings, I did take note of it . And . it was, again, it's one of those flourishes that If you miss it, it's not a big deal. It's not going to affect anything in the story, but when you know about it, it makes the story that much fuller. And I was looking through your 33 list and the number two right after it is that.

In the tree picture, the the patch, it has spades. But during the fantasy sequence, Charlie's fantasy with Nick, it turns to hearts. I mean, how clever is that? How clever is that? 

Matt Cassem: Yes. 

Christina Trevaskis: You know, it, it makes me think of , these aren't the things. Now I haven't looked through the entire list, but I can imagine just even kind of paging through it.

These weren't things that were generally written into the script. These were things that happened afterward, you know, either with the cinematographer, the set designer, the costume designer, probably the costume designers like, Hey, I got this idea, you know that's why, you know, specifically with, with this type of writing television movies. It really is a collaboration. It starts with the script, but it finishes with all of the other , co creators within that in a way that's, partially true with a book. It is a solitary endeavor. But the way I work with my clients, and I've got to imagine this is this way with other editors, you know, there are things that we noticed that maybe the writer didn't notice because they're too close to the work.

And so, you know, like I said, with my edit this weekend, we discussed the whole nickname thing and my goodness, I can't wait for draft 2 because I know she's going to do something up real good with this and even, take it beyond what I had even suggested. But yeah, it's. Again, it comes down to the little details that just, make it more full.

I would also equate, like you were talking earlier, you know, this Heartstopper is television, so it's easier to see details. But the thing is, with writing, it's the same way. That so for instance, we may not have noticed the audience didn't notice these things maybe upon first watching and then we, we realize it and you know, then it becomes fuller with a manuscript.

I often tell my. Clients that, these details that you come up with, they don't necessarily have to be in the manuscript, but if you know them, the characters become fuller, the plot becomes fuller, everything becomes fuller because, you know, all these little details and you can, weave them in or leave them out, but it makes the writing more full and that's why little details are important.

Matt Cassem: Yeah, thinking about the writing in this one, right, it would be really easy for this particular situation, like we have a patch that has, a tree that kind of grows, blossoms, blooms throughout the series as that romance grows. I do think that you can weave a visual like that into a written story as well, where you can have, maybe it's a love story about, you know, two younger kids who live in the same neighborhood.

And, the. protagonist basically maybe has a tree that's out in the, in the backyard and it's their favorite tree. And they like to go out and sit by it when they're thinking and, , this tree could potentially change over time. Maybe not necessarily as linearly, linearly blooming, right?

But it could be like, Oh, this tree is really, really full and green when everything is going swimmingly. And then when there's things that aren't going well, we're at a period where the tree is now maybe a little bit more barren. It's just not as full. 

Christina Trevaskis: Well, it also comes down to what we were talking about in previous episode show versus tell, you know, when you add those kinds of details.

 Like you were just suggesting, that is show. That's not telling us that the seasons are changing. That's showing us here the season has changed or something with the story has changed because, the tree changed. 

Matt Cassem: Sure. You were saying too something about this, the show and the use of color.

Let's talk a little bit about that because it shows up on the list quite a few times that there are, different aspects of color used through in the show to signify different things. What are some of the things that you found? 

Christina Trevaskis: Well the first one that really stands out and I noticed it, I noticed this aspect definitely on the first watch and that's the blue yellow with Charlie and Nick, you know, they each have a representative color.

And I read later -- probably again on Tumblr -- that someone suggested that when they were together so Charlie's bedroom specifically the, the bed sheets, the comforter were yellow in the beginning. And then they became green when Charlie and Nick were together because yellow and blue make green.

I don't know if I recognize that myself. I don't know if maybe it's my you know, my apps that I'm watching Netflix on that maybe didn't quite have the same color. But I think it's a great idea, and I think that that they do use the use of blue and yellow, and in fact the biggest one that comes to mind is when Nick comes over in the rain, he doesn't have an umbrella, Charlie gives him the umbrella, and the umbrella is exactly half yellow, half blue.

Again, I don't know specifically what significance blue and yellow might represent but I think something that you noticed with the coloring was the bisexual coloring. In the party scene, a lot of people had pointed it out at the bowling alley, but you had noticed it in the party scene along with, the rainbows when it showed Tara and Darcy and they're, dancing in their kiss.

But when it showed Nick, you said it was pink and blue. 

Matt Cassem: Yes. It was basically, yeah, pink, blue and purple across him. And it was a little bit more subtle, like in the list here, it's number 11 on the list and it captures. Some good stills of that color variance there, but when it goes to Tara and Darcy, it is in your face, rainbow.

Like it is. all over. You cannot. Oh yeah. Right. Where you might've missed. Yep. The, the coloring on Nick, if you weren't really looking forward to paying attention to it. So it's interesting. And I think color in general just does a lot. I mean, there's, there's obviously there's tons of research on color theory and what colors do. you know, for, for someone who's looking at them. 

Christina Trevaskis: Right. 

Matt Cassem: So it's interesting that you can also use it to kind of tell a narrative. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. 

I do think specifically for Heartstopper the use of colors in every aspect. Again, I don't know whether it comes down to, all of the different people that are contributing.

I do know that, something that I noticed immediately on the first watch was all of the cinematography rainbows, not just the ones that were, put in, in the background or whatever, but specifically with the camera flares and looking at different, things and the rainbows that were showing up, you know, all of that really contributes to the story.

And again, I don't know if that was something that was written into the script, but I've got to imagine it wasn't. And that because all of the people that were working on Heartstopper are LGBTQ plus positive, I can't say that everybody on set, you know, is affiliated with LGBTQ, but I do know that they were very specific in the people that they hired, knowing that they were really going all in with Heartstopper. So, and I think that, I think the director along with the producer, I think both of them are gay men. Again, I don't know everyone that worked on the film, obviously, but I think that you can't work on a show like this, be the cinematographer and say, I'm going to use these rainbow lens flares because, that's, yeah, so it, it really took a real talent, a real specific eye.

And creativity, to put on something like this with those kinds of things and especially again, not just with the lens flares and the rainbows, in the background and the backdrop of a lot of different scenes. But like you said, you know, that, that blue, pink and purple the pride colors when Tara and Darcy kiss, that's, that's very deliberate.

Matt Cassem: Mm hmm. Yeah, there's a lot of those little things too. I think that come out with colors with again, those doodles, right? Because we know that that's a very Heartstopper thing from 

Christina Trevaskis: Oh, yeah, 

Matt Cassem: the graphic novel. Yeah, they come out and the list kind of does a good job of pointing it out to in places I hadn't noticed.

Like, for example, 15 Elle's sports day makeup has little comic style doodles on her face. You got a star and a little heart. Yeah, there is a scene where Yeah. Yeah. They are in the music room when, that's when Tara and Darcy actually kissed for the first time, mm-hmm. and instead of, you know, not just like the little hearts, but, and the, the little like sparky things, but also music notes.

Christina Trevaskis: Yes. 

Matt Cassem: Which was kind of cool.

Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. Yeah. So's both, you know, neat musicians. Yeah. 

Matt Cassem: And, and that was I think, one of my favorite little details that was probably less little, just given the fact that. It was right there, like kind of in your face when it happened, right? You saw those, those little doodles happen, but like, for example, when Nick first really wants to hold Charlie's hand really badly, wants to hold his hand.

And every time he gets close, it's just like that. I mean, it's, it's tactile, like you can absolutely feel it. As the person watching the show, because you've been there before, you can relate to that. Like, I know that feeling where I'm like, so badly, but I just, I can't. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yep. I was just going to say that. I was just going to say that it's palpable.

Matt Cassem: Yes. 

Christina Trevaskis: And you're like, Ooh, I can literally feel the heat. 

Matt Cassem: Yep. 

Christina Trevaskis: And the excitement of that, Ooh, Ooh, I really want to hold her hand. And yeah, yeah, I loved all of those. I did notice I got the movie tie in comic cause that's what was available here in the U S right away. And I did notice in the back they have a few pages from the script and she actually calls those Heartstopper moments and then she'll describe it. So that was actually written into the script. 

Matt Cassem: That's cool. 

Christina Trevaskis: That was actually written into the script. Yeah. And, and that actually really did translate well from, the comic to screen.

So that was something that they did really, really well. 

Matt Cassem: Yeah, that's awesome. 

Christina Trevaskis: What are some other things that. you noticed from that list that were really obscure?

Matt Cassem: I mean, I think there's a couple of them. I think, you know, number 26, Elle wear some outfits that are light blue, light pink and white, like the trans flag. I can't say that I noticed that as much personally, but like reflecting on it and kind of thinking about some of the scenes that I do remember, I do, but I like to that there were two different scenes where there are butterflies and I didn't know this.

So this is something new. You know that I learned, but butterflies are symbols for the trans community. And... 

Christina Trevaskis: Oh! 

Matt Cassem: So I thought that was kind of, 

Christina Trevaskis: I didn't know that either! 

Matt Cassem: Very, very interesting. Yeah. Like in the art, in the classroom, there's two gigantic butterflies that are on a big sheet of paper. And then there's some little ones in the window as well, like kind of totally covering that window.

And, and again, hues of like pink and blue and, you know, 

Christina Trevaskis: Yep. It's interesting because I did know did notice the trans flag colors, but that's just because I knew the colors of the trans flag and some of that stuff. I did not know about the the butterflies. I noticed the butterflies. But I thought of that as more as transformation because I saw Ellie and Tao's relationship more as a an evolution thing.

It wasn't something that started, from the very beginning or anything like that. Or you know, what some people call a slow burn. 

Matt Cassem: Yeah. 

Christina Trevaskis: Friendship into, a little bit more of a romance. So I kind of, I think I attributed the, the butterflies to that. But I love that that has that dynamic of trans representation.

That's wonderful! 

Matt Cassem: Yeah, it's really, really cool. I also think, when we first started talking about this and then into prior to recording this, one of the things that I mentioned was like, we should talk about as we did with the first, couple of them. Like, how do you bring that to life in writing?

How do you do that when it's not a visual medium? But I actually think it is much easier than I'm, than I considered it to be because I think you can have, almost, it would almost seem like a throwaway line in the book that, Elle put on her pink blazer and. started to walk towards the school.

Her favorite denim overalls, overalls, we have history there. Yeah. But her favorite denim overalls, you know, being, being blue, just being able to kind of have like, obviously you're going to do it much more eloquently than that. But. You can call it those types of little details without making it seem obvious.

Christina Trevaskis: Yes. And the thing is what I would recommend from my editorial perspective, you're not going to find those details. Most likely in the 1st draft you're still figuring out the story in the 1st draft. You're still figuring out character aspects. Some of the writers I work with call it layering, they've got to come back and layer add those details, add the things.

So those kinds of details are going to in, in the 2nd, or even in the 3rd draft. Yeah. I know a lot of people are like one draft, let's fix the grammar and let's go. I do not ascribe to that. I am definitely a, I think you really need to have a minimum of three drafts before you can honestly say you really put out your best work. Because that 2nd draft is really just kind of, the 1st draft is, is figuring out the story. A lot of writers say, it's telling yourself the story 1st. And then you go back in in the 2nd draft and. Work out the kinks, work out the things, flush out the characters a little bit more, make the, the plot a little more, specific not so loose make sure the flow of the story, like you're not top heavy where, everything's happening in the beginning and then you're like, drift off into the sunset.

Yeah. And the third draft that draft really is. If you haven't had a chance to work on the details, that's when you can absolutely add those layers and details. And like you said, if you wanted to add that aesthetic of, Elle wearing. the trans flag colors, you could literally add that in, like you said, in a more nuanced way than, what you were describing.

Yeah. Pink blazer with her, blue jean denim overalls. Yeah, absolutely. And that actually adds another layer of that show versus tell, you're showing the audience, Elle is proud of her colors, wearing them indicating, and it can be one of those things.

Maybe the audience at that point doesn't know that the character is trans and, they have, you know, added this piece that as it goes on, gives more details and more volume to the character. 

Matt Cassem: Yeah, I was thinking like absolutely could absolutely be used as foreshadowing in a way as well, right?

That's another another way to do it is foreshadow some of the reveals that are going to come later. And again, most readers are not going to pick up on it right away. Unless it's something really in your face, obvious, but even then, most of the time, if it's done just in service of the narrative and kind of description of the area.

Most people aren't gonna aren't gonna get it. I think as we kind of wrap this one up looking at the number 32, it talks about how everybody's bedrooms represent their personalities. So literally, Charlie's room is cluttered, generally creative, full of references to his favorite books and music.

Nick's room is neat and stereotypically masculine. Darcy's room is total chaos and Tara's room is full of stuffed animals, right? And it fits those characters so well. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yes. 

Matt Cassem: Based on what we know. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yes. 

Matt Cassem: Isaac's room is full of books, Tao's room is edgy and carefully curated, Elle's room is artsy, full of handmade decor.

Like, it's, it's really kind of interesting. And again, something you could easily do for your characters in describing a setting for them, right? If it happens to further the narrative, describing the setting for them. Don't just do it just to do it, but, you know. 

Christina Trevaskis: Absolutely. And again, those, those are adding, more depth to the characters, you know specifically with Tao, even though, we don't really get to know him really well in the first season. We do know some things about him. I mean, he is an art house, buff, film noir, buff. He's the one who, not only does he have the posters and stuff, but like, we're going to have a film night and it's not going to be, Marvel, the Avengers style stuff.

So yeah, there is a lot that you can add with those details that gives much more depth to the characters without really, having them have to say a word. Okay. 

Matt Cassem: Yeah, so I think the challenge this week is going to be all about how do you work in those little details like without rewriting a scene completely, how can you buff it to maybe add a few little details here and there that actually do serve as a little bit more depth for the character to serve as a little more depth to the story describing the situation, describing the individual, again, without being in your face, it's a small detail.

So how do you do that? Think about that with your writing. And really, again, don't rewrite, just add to. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, that's a great idea. And in fact, I would take that challenge a little bit further and just say, anyone who is working on their second draft and finishing up their second draft, or maybe they've set aside the second draft or handed it over to their editor or whatnot.

Take it and do it again and add some layers, add some more details, add some things to the character to, the descriptions any of that kind of stuff, like you said, to add more depth. 

Absolutely. 

Matt Cassem: Yes. Well, perfect. I think we've got a lot to work with there. And we had had some really fun conversation around that one.

I liked it. I liked it a lot. So where. Where, my dear, can they find you if they want to know more about Tina? They need more Tina. Where can they find you? 

Christina Trevaskis: They can find me at Bookmatchmaker.Com. If you want to email me, it's Christina at bookmatchmaker. com. Otherwise, you can generally find me at Instagram, hanging out do a lot with my stories there.

You can find me at the other social media too, but I'm not always there. So you might not catch me, but yeah. 

Matt Cassem: Perfect. 

Christina Trevaskis: Give me a DM. 

Matt Cassem: Perfect. 

Christina Trevaskis: And you, my dear, where can they find you? 

Matt Cassem: I can always be found with all of the details at cassem, C A S S E M dot O M G dot L O L.

Well, very good. Thanks again for a wonderful episode this week. And I'll look forward to hearing from all of you and for talking to you again next week, my dear. 

Christina Trevaskis: Yes, me too. Have a good one. 

Matt Cassem: You too. Bye.