Beyond the Words: What Makes a Bestseller?

Beyond the Words: What Makes a Bestseller?

Matt: Welcome everyone to write Out Loud the podcast about storytelling, authorship writing, creativity, molding that clay making whatever it is that's in your mind, come to life. And of course, I'm here joined by the beautiful, the wonderful, the crystalline, Christina.

Christina: Crystalline.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: even know what that means.

Matt: I don't either. I made it up, but it works out really well I think.

Christina: No, I, I don't think you made up the word. I think the word actually exists. I just

Matt: That's true.

Christina: the exact definition of it it is. Someone

Matt: Probably true.

Christina: and tell us what it is.

Matt: There we go. Well, we decided, as we were kind of talking earlier today, we, we happened to cross the post on threads that is by Editor-in-Chief Writes and talk. Just a little, little summary about what the Post was about.

Christina: Well, so there isn't a, um, a name along, uh, with editor-in-chief writes, they are editor, publisher storyteller behind the pages, so no name associated with it. Um, but from this post, they say that, 15 years in publishing, working with everyone from Kristin h uh, Frieda McFadden, Colleen Hoover, Jillian Flynn, Nicholas Sparks.

They're dropping some, pretty big names here.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: seen it all. Uh, indie breakouts, viral sensations, but the, the, meaning behind the post is what makes a book about seller.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: components go into making the book a bestseller and they end the first part of the thread, by saying, here's the kicker.

It's never about writing a great book.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: just about writing a great book.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um, they go into, what does. Go into writing a a, a good book. A great idea means nothing if it's poorly executed. Absolutely 100%

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: mediocre idea. Written brilliantly can sell millions. Absolutely. We've seen that happen.

Matt: yes,

Christina: of those we call, our, our candy, our crack candy.

Matt: our mindless fluff that we love.

Christina: Uh, the next big thing is often just a well-packaged twist of an old idea.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: We can say that, you know for sure with, uh, Stephanie Meyer vampires have been along for around for a long time.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: But, she, she had her own twist with it and, you know,

it was great. 

Matt: I mean, Yellowstone

Christina: Yellowstone, 

Matt: right? Kind of a Western.

Christina: but Western with a new twist.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: can they keep the ranch?

Matt: Yep.

Christina: They then go into, the writing, does quality win. bestsellers don't have to be the most beautifully written books. They need to be clear, engaging. And for me, this is key. Emotionally gripping,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: uh, pacing and storytelling are greater than literary perfection. Absolutely. me a literary perfect book. And, uh, I may not read it because I have said this to clients, if you hand me a technically perfect book, you may have written the emotion right out of it

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: because then you're just reading ton's construction and great grammar, and where's the meat, where's the story? And sometime especially. With fiction. And I'll even say, take that a step further and say the genre fictions, you need to have the vernacular in there. You need to create real characters. Real characters grammatically correct

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: of the time.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: I'm a grammar queen, self-professed grammar queen, but that's not how I talk.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: I still speak in complete sentences. I probably still speak, grammatically correct,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: have things that, know, make me sound human,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: you know?

Matt: Yep.

There's so many of the, the. Classics, right, that are written in certain ways now, a lot of the classics actually do lend into more of the vernacular and more of the, the way that people spoke back in the day, right? But I think there's so many of those more, those classics that are more highly regarded as being more technically perfect from a, a writing standpoint that are just boring as hell to me.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: Um. But a lot of the books that I find really, really gripping in that sense are, you know, to this point, like they might not be, there might be some grammatical mistakes, there might be some things that just don't really fit in a, in a traditional sense, but they, the story makes you go, oh God, I love this.

Christina: Yes. And, and in fact, you as a reader are more willing to forgive mistakes if you're along for the great ride. And I would actually say, the emotionally. Gripping stuff will actually, connect the audience, uh, with you as a writer that they're kind of willing to. It's, willing suspension of disbelief.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: We all know we're reading a book. We all know we're reading something fiction.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: But we get so lost in the characters and the emotionality of it that we forget that we're reading sometimes, and

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: all of a sudden look up and go, oh, the sun has set, the fire is out,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: my wine is gone.

What am I doing? You know?

Matt: Yep.

Christina: I'm kind of hungry, feeling a little peckish. Um, but yeah, that's, when we connect to a story. We get lost in it.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I think is, is the point of this, the idea that, the writing doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be emotionally connecting.

Matt: Yeah. Think about even just from, again, from a movie standpoint, right? The Blair Witch Project. If you think about the technical aspects of that movie, it was a bunch of random shots in a handheld camcorder. Really terrible lighting, really, not, not a lot of dialogue to speak of. I mean, there was a lot of like, you know.

Huffing and hawing and snot, snot dripping and snorting. Um, but there wasn't a lot of, like, again, from a technical standpoint to tell the story, it would've been kind of like garbage on a page.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: But because it had you in the feeling of it in that, and it pulled you in into the tension and the emotion of it, like it really, it worked.

Christina: Yeah. Yes. Yes. And the thing is, I think if they, they may not have written everything down, and I can't actually recall if it was one of those things that they were improv, a little

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: But they still had to have a basic outline, okay, this is what we're gonna do. Um, because everything just felt. natural, like this could have really been a video that they found in the woods and these people had just appeared on there. Um, yeah, I think that when an audience, gets so sucked into the story, it doesn't matter if it's something that you know has been done before,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Stephanie Meyer. Um, still so compelling,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And compelling and, emotional pulling feelings. I told you before we started recording that when I talked to my writers, especially first time ones, because they're not, they're still kind of feeling their way on how, how do I do this

Matt: Sure.

Christina: if you don't know where your story is gonna go? Or what you're doing with the story, start with how do I wanna make my audience feel?

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Because that's not just gonna kind of you in a genre. Um, want my, know, my readers to feel suspense or fear or, anxious or want them to feel all warm and fuzzy and.

Matt: Feel the love,

Christina: feel the love

Matt: the connection.

Christina: I want them to cry, you know? Oh, one of my favorite, um, all time scenes in a movie ever is Steel Magnolia's when, Sally Field is ranting about how she just wants her daughter back, and she's sobbing and screaming and. so mad, I just want to hit someone. And Olympia Dukakis Pulson Charlie McClean says, hit Wea. minute. You are crying so hard that the tears are streaming down your face. And the next se second, you're laughing out loud because it's

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: ridiculous. Hit Wea, That's, that's what we're talking about here,

Matt: Yep.

Christina: pulling the audience in so much that they are laughing and then crying and the whole gamut of emotion.

So

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I, I completely agree with that aspect of, this post, the next

Matt: before we, before we move on to that though, I want to just touch base on something. 'cause we've talked about this before. We've, you know, I think we've played this episode a few times in show versus tell. When you decide what you want them to feel, them being your readers right? Then figure out how do you show them?

Christina: Right,

Matt: What will make them feel that versus tell them, right? Because you don't wanna come out and say, Hey, I need you to be scared 'cause this guy is really scary and he's going to, you know, he might stab them or something. Like, you've gotta build up the tension, right? So how do you so think about that. How do I want them to feel now?

How do I show them the scene so that they feel that emotion

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: those two together?

Christina: Yep. Absolutely. That is a, a great way to frame that is, being able to show people, so again, using the steel magnolias, nobody told us we had to cry.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Nobody told us how we had to feel. We just were already connected. Emotionally to Sally Field's character, because we have seen her, witness her throughout the entire movie up until that point. Um, and in the grief of losing her daughter, you, you do feel that gamut of emotions where you're sad and, angry, and all of those emotions.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yeah, we didn't need to be told we have to cry at this point, or we have to feel something or, you know.

Matt: Please cry.

Christina: Yes.

Matt: Yeah. Yep. I love it.

Christina: point.

Matt: So that next section then they talk about the publisher overall. And for a publisher does, do they actually, the, the title of this section is the publisher. Do they make or break a best seller?

Christina: Yeah. And they make some really good points. It's interesting because I do feel like, the, the, the next paragraph, really gets at the heart of it, I mean, yeah. Uh, to traditional publishers can put a lot of, marketing behind. books and a lot of 'em do.

 Especially for the, the big name, writers. But there are times too where, so Ruby Dixon that we've had on the podcast before, we talked a lot about how series got its, got its start. Yes. Certainly in the romance community. People were like, oh, this is a great series.

And it had great word of mouth and she was doing just fine.

Matt: Mm.

Christina: And then there was someone on TikTok that made it explode.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And it became, something even more.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: So there is that influence the nature of viral.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: But the thing is. Even when something goes viral, you still, have to have the place where the book is being sold.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: In this way, you know, make the point of saying that the traditional publisher, is going to have the strength of distribution.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: So I'm not saying that, you hear about a book. You have your favorite bookstores that you go to to find that book, and if that book isn't available there, is it going to have the same opportunity of going completely viral?

Matt: Right.

Christina: the argument can be made that as long as you're at Amazon,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: everybody knows that Amazon has, 99% of books.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: Yeah, but not ev, not everyone prefers to buy from Amazon.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: It does all depend. But the one point I wanna make, this is what I was saying about, um, what they really got right about that, today a, a viral book can outsell a publisher backed release.

Yes. is shifting. And authors who understand this are the ones rewriting the rules.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: is key to me. is key to me. Matt is familiar with my of, back when I was doing marketing, I kept saying, know, everyone talks about, thinking outside the box. Why can't we just get rid of the box altogether just think of new and creative ways of. Of book selling,

Matt: Right.

Christina: marketing.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And so I think that's pretty much what they're saying here is, what is that new way? Earlier this year TikTok was put on pause for 24 hours, and Lord, what were we all gonna do? But that also showed me, okay, we can't put all the eggs into one basket.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: We gotta think of new ways of doing it.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: we've talked before, about doing a dedicated to Kickstarter,

Matt: Hmm

Christina: Brandon Sanderson. I think the number that we were given was $41 million on

Matt: mm-hmm. Yeah,

Christina: I mean, man, we'd love to

Matt: so

Christina: Brandon

Matt: just to say, yeah, just to say that Brandon Sanderson had done so many different Kickstarters that he raised $41 million

Christina: Yes.

Matt: in that time. And in all of his experience in Kickstarter, so he's made a tremendous amount of money that way.

Christina: It's not just about how do we find those readers on TikTok,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: or how do we advertising out there on Amazon, or, what have you. But what is that next thing?

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Is it something like Kickstarter that puts, more money into storyteller's pocket,

Matt: Sure

Christina: um, that it gives readers something back.

Now I don't know exactly what he had available for the Kickstarter, but I can imagine, you know, um, signed copies,

Matt: merch.

Christina: Merch. but I, I'm thinking more in terms of, special editions,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: copies that are not going to be available anywhere else.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: think he writes fantasy.

So maybe maps of the world or, what

Matt: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, I think what this. Kind of steps into next is really about marketing, right? And the, and again, the power that that marketing has, because without it, so that, just to kind of go into it, because we, we see it and I wanna make sure we read it out. So, um, editor in chief writes says, marketing's the real power player.

Marketing is the biggest factor in bestseller status, period. You can write the greatest novel of a decade, but if no one hears about it, it's dead. Viral moments, targeted ads, influencer hype and strong positioning. Canella a book that wouldn't otherwise stand out. So then she goes on to talk about Colleen Hoover and saying, , again, she was selling decently for years.

She was a bestseller for years, but TikTok turned her into a viral sensation almost overnight. So, so it is really, again, that the marketing power of that really powerful emotional, gripping story and then the right viral moment. Just coming together.

Christina: Yeah. And um, this poster actually says that wasn't luck. by my definition of luck, it

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: 'cause I don't adhere to this, luck is just, I. Luck of the draw or whatever luck. Um, and I believe it was Oprah who first it this way. Um, luck is when opportunity meets preparedness,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: so the opportunity can come around.

But if you are not ready for it, the luck ist going to happen. But if you are ready, Hoover was always al already a bestseller. Okay, so all someone had to do was take her viral and she becomes a phenomenon. I mean, it was the same thing with JK Rowling. Um, even this Stephen King to an extent,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Once, he got himself out there and, you know, made the name for himself.

Back then, there wasn't a TikTok,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: still went viral.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: was just, the analog viral. But still, I mean. Bookstores, put 'em out front. They did promotions, they did, 

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: of stuff. But again, the key to me is that he was ready, his writing was ready. the idea that you can put it on one or the other, like if you're only gonna have one thing, are you gonna have marketing or are you gonna have, good emotionally connecting fiction.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Okay. And I don't think you can have one without the other.

Matt: Yeah, I think, I think if you have a moderately emotionally connected story, like you've gotten, you, you've started to go there, it's enough to, to get some, some traction, right? But it's not, I mean, people aren't gonna just fall head over heels with it, but then you have a very powerful marketing behind it.

You could lift it up, it could happen.

Christina: I,

Matt: It just can't be. Sands the emotion.

Christina: Yeah, I, I will agree, agree with you to an extent. Um, because there are always gonna be those people that read it and are like, okay, this isn't. The last book that I read that was so phenomenal that I couldn't stop thinking about it.

Matt: Hmm

Christina: Um, yeah, I think yes, if you connect emotionally with the audience, you're giving yourself the best shot.

Matt: hmm.

Christina: Um, and even though like I said, I agree with this author by saying, um, a mediocre idea if executed well. Yes,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: but you still have to emotionally connect with the audience and if you have all of those components. So, I have been watching Paradise and Hulu

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: and I have told everyone I know they have to

Matt: me.

Christina: Yes.

Including you. the finale will be airing and by the time this podcast airs. It will be complete. So

Matt: Okay.

Christina: go rush out and binge, binge watch it. And I'm not going to give any spoilers, but I will say that this show hit all of the good points and that's what made it top tier.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: Okay. yeah. Can you hit, mid-tier and still be successful?

Absolutely. And especially if it's better than what you were doing before. I think that the biggest problem we have right now in publishing is that marketing component.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: Is that TikTok going viral? Is that being seen? Um, because I have several phenomenal writers, um, that I work with that still have not had that viral moment,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: and they are ready. For that viral moment, their writing is great. I would say emotionally connected and all. but you don't have that, being seen component.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: I of course don't have any writers writing for me that are terrible, so I can't tell you whether or not mediocre writing, has hit the mark. Although I will say this, there are writers out there that I have seen be bestsellers and then I try them and yes, it is very tough to take off my editor cap.

Matt: Mm.

Christina: But that also tells me that they need more work,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: either on the emotional connection part or something else. The show versus Estella is, is a big one,

Matt: Sure.

Christina: but there are writers,, we've had them on the podcast that absolutely make me forget that I'm an editor. draw me so much into the book I look up and I go, oh my God, it's 3:00 AM and I've, got a meeting tomorrow morning and

Matt: I need to go to sleep.

Christina: down.

Matt: Yep. 

She wraps it up and I think this is, this is the perfect pin on it, right? In terms of just. How she kind of sums this up or this person. Um, a bestseller is not just about the idea writing, publisher or marketing, it's about the right mix of the compelling storyline and storytelling, not necessarily perfect writing emotional resonance, right?

Matt: Readers need to feel something marketing that makes it impossible to ignore and the right timing and a bit of luck.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Matt: All of that comes together, right? That each part plays a piece in that. So the only thing that you, as a author, really need to do is to focus on your storytelling craft. Are you able to draw that emotion out?

Can you, can you show enough of a story that gets to the heart of what you want to, what you want to portray, and then the ability for you to get the word out,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: right? Those are the two things you have full control over.

Christina: Yeah, there's, there's a third that I will add. And this author actually frames it a different way, but it connects to what we were talking about last week with the believing in yourself. Um, they say push it like it deserves to be read.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Meaning, believe in yourself enough know that

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: deserve to be read. And that suggests your book.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: When people are talking about it, push your book.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: you are your, own best, cheerleader.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: If we don't know about the book, how are we going to know about the book? Unless start putting yourself out there, go on some podcasts, I mean, last

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um. One of the authors we had on had actually posted on threads. Hey, I'm looking for book podcasts. Let me

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: I mean,

Matt: Yep.

Christina: Little teeny tiny podcasts that, you know, I believed us in us enough to suggest us.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: the podcast that she comes on.

And, and

Matt: Yep.

Christina: and we love her for that.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: but yeah, so, but I think that ties

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: So I would

Matt: A hundred percent.

Christina: That, that aspect,

Matt: But I, I do think too, there's something that, we talked about this weekend that a lot of authors don't really realize that this is a job, right? They're going to write, they're gonna write the story they want, they have this idea in their head that they're gonna write this story and they're gonna put it out there and people are gonna read it and they're gonna love it, and it's gonna be amazing.

This is a job. You have to hustle. You have to be able to sell yourself. You have to sell your book, you have to sell your story. You have to put the effort into it to get out there. It helps if you have a publisher that will help you with that, of course. But ultimately, if you're not willing to put in the work, if you're just gonna write it and let it sit on the shelf, well,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: not gonna be a bestseller.

It's just not gonna happen unless you have a lot of people running through your house looking at all your books

Christina: un unless you have, um, that mother that carries your book everywhere with her and starts handing it out to

Matt: Y Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah. But I, I just think it's worth remembering, right? If you, if you're listening to this thinking, gosh, I, I want to write this book. I have this story. I've been thinking about it for a long time. Do it, do it, but be prepared that unless you just wanna write it from a cathartic standpoint, I need to get it done and off my chest.

I don't really care what happens to it after that. If that's your, if that's your thing, cool, great. Do that. But if you want this to be a be a successful book, if you want this to be a bestseller, you are going to have to work at it.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. On the front end and the

Matt: Mm-hmm. Yep. So yeah, we just really like this. And I think I would also put, uh, put the call out there that editor in chief writes if, if you were feeling like maybe you want to come talk to us more about this, we'd love to have you join us. Uh, it'd be a great conversation.

Christina: And if you wanna remain anonymous, we do not have to, we will just call you editor in chief.

Matt: Yes. Maybe EICW,

Christina: That

Matt: Iqua.

Christina: too much of a mouthful.

Matt: We'll call you Iqua.

Christina: E.

Matt: Oh, there we go. Just call E. Awesome. But yeah, some good, some good nuggets. So again, just to recap it. We talked just about what it takes to really make a story. Be all that it could possibly be. Right? It's the emo, it's the emotionally gripping story doesn't have to be technically perfect.

Christina: Nope. Connects

Matt: It connects with the audience. Make your audience feel something and show them how to feel that thing. Market the heck out of it. Do whatever you think out. Again, get rid of that box. Let's think about these really crazy, creative ways that we can market these books, right? That you can market your story and get the word out there and just think about all of the great stories you've ever read and what really truly made them great.

So I think we've got a lot of ideas around. Just what it takes to be that bestselling author, and I hope you take at least some of this advice and put it into play.

Christina: yeah. Don't, um, I think my takeaway would be yes, make sure that you have that emotionally compelling connecting

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Absolutely. Without. That part of it. You can have all the money in the world and the marketing in the world and yeah, you'll maybe make your money back. but each book is gonna have to be that way. so I think you have to marry the two.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: have to figure out what you can do, what you are fully,

capable of what is in your control. That's what I wanna say. And then the marketing part. You can do what you can, but a lot of it isn't in your control. But you can still do stuff.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: can still, try to find those readers that, help make it go viral. Or as Matt said, think outside of the box. What are some new ways that you can reach readers?

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: about it, we're creatives, writers are creative. if you have to think about how you're gonna solve, the plot of your book, then about how do you solve game?

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: do you change it, how do you be, know, that next viral thing.

Matt: Yeah. In the marketing, how do you get your audience, in this case, the people you want to read the book, how do you get them to feel something about this book? Enough to pick it up?

Christina: yes. Marketing is feeling as

Matt: Mm-hmm. A hundred percent Psychology, I.

Christina: Yes.

Matt: Make 'em wanna read it. Awesome. Well again, we'll put the call out there. So editor-in-chief writes, if you wanna join us, please drop us a line.

You can find out where to get hold of us at, write out loud pod.com. And this, I think is gonna put a nice little bow on, uh, this week. But listen. As we say at the end of every single episode, just keep on writing, keep on creating, and keep on getting your voice out there because that is where it belongs.

​