Belief in Yourself and Resistance Fiction

Believe in Yourself and Resistance Fiction

Matt: Welcome everybody to write Out Loud the podcast about storytelling, writing, authorship, creativity, and all of the things that set your heart a fire. I am here, of course, joined by the beautiful, the magical, the mystical, the luxurious, Christina,

Christina: Ooh, luxurious.

Matt: yes, yes, yes. No alliteration today, really, but

Christina: No, but

Matt: okay.

Christina: You can't always, you can't

Matt: a little,

Christina: Uh,

Matt: little, little curve.

Christina: yeah.

Matt: I mean a little different.

Christina: we need to tell the audience that this is just ridiculous, but you're insistent on doing it and I have to go along with it.

Matt: Yes, exactly. I hold you captive to it. That is what it is. This week we're gonna jump off of our last episode with our very special guest, Kristen Ashley, and we wanted to just take some time to kinda reflect on the message that was really a thread throughout that entire interview.

And if you haven't listened to it, you should head on back, listen to it, and then come back to us.

 Throughout her entire interview and the message around her journey and her development as an author, there was just one very, very clear message and one clear theme, and that was

Christina: believe in yourself.

Matt: yes.

Christina: I think if we even had her on the podcast in this second, she would be like, no, I didn't believe myself. I didn't, I didn't care. And I think she even said during the episode if I'm recalling correctly, that she just decided she was gonna write for herself, put it out there, and it didn't matter if anybody read it or not.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I'm not speaking to that part of it. I am speaking to the part of it that. When she was writing and trying to get published by New York because there were no there

Matt: Sure.

Christina: self-published in that way. There was only vanity press and coming from the book selling world, for those that aren't familiar with the term vanity press is, it is a little bit archaic now because I don't think it exists, 

now it might be something that you pay them to publish your book, and that's not what I'm talking about. Vanity Press would be someone who self-published had a name that was a press, and most bookstores would not carry it.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: bookstores would carry. They didn't carry anything that anybody printed. Or published on their own. And it wasn't because they were snobs or anything like that. It's actually the way the backend of book selling works is books have to be returnable. bookstores that can't return books then are stuck with that book, and if they never sell it, they're out of money. Almost every single bookstore, including indie bookstores. So if you, shop at an indie bookstore, they do work with the publishers and book distributors. And if the books are returnable, then they send them back. If they don't sell 'em, they send 'em back and those distributors can redistribute the book somewhere

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Anyway, just to give you a little overview on Vanity Press, that's, what Kristen was saying, she didn't wanna be a part of,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And so knowing that she wanted to get published by New York, she pursued that. And in order to pursue that, back then it was a lot of investment in money. You had to, snail mail, chapters, synopsis, other things

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: costs money. She would have to go, so she said she went to the library. So that's not necessarily an expense, but there's a was a book called The Writer's Digest that was so huge. It looked like an encyclopedia. It's

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: I'm showing Matt how thick it was

Matt: It's very thick, I could tell you.

Christina: Yeah. And that book actually had agents' names, editor's names, all sorts of things that you could submit to the rules to submit the cost for submitting, all of that. And so,. An author like Kristen and Ashley would go and spend hours. The idea that she spent so much time, so much money. And still got nos and still pursued it.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: That is a core belief in yourself. Even if it's not on the surface. She felt something because if she were just gonna write these story for herself and it didn't matter if anybody read them, then you don't care. If New York says, no,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: care. You don't send off, these manuscripts and spend the money. To get that done.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: there had to be, some place deep down in her, and maybe it was subconscious, a belief in herself that this was going to happen,

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: this was a dream worthy of pursuit. So where I would like to take that a little bit is to the idea of where are you at with your belief in yourself,

Matt: Yeah. Well, there's one, there's one piece I want to, I want to just touch on before we get in into that, because I think there's a big core belief in yourself. There's also a, a belief in who you are. That came through really clearly. Like she's like, I'm a writer. I'm a writer. I'm gonna write. It doesn't matter.

Christina: Yep.

Matt: But I think there's also a piece of that which says, I can say that I'm a writer. I don't care if anybody's gonna read it. While at the same time caring very deeply about the craft.

Christina: Yes.

Matt: Right. And saying, I'm gonna make sure. 'cause she even said very clearly, I just never wanna write a shitty book.

Christina: Right.

Matt: Right. So to be able to put that out and it's that balance of I, I have a complete belief in myself.

I know who I am, and I am very, very clear about the craft and my love for the craft of this,

Christina: Yeah,

Matt: or love for this craft.

Christina: and

Matt: And those things together are so huge.

Christina: I would add to that list too. The idea that she was not going to change her voice, meaning first person

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: in romance, even though that was the sole reason she kept getting turned down. Now I'm sure there were many would have said, okay, I've gotta write this in third person,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: and then, wrote it in third person and then submitted those.

And she did, I think she even did say, uh, some of the, she tried to write stories in in third person.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: and she does have stories. In third person,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Out there. But her beloved books, the Rock Chicks Chaos, Colorado Mountain Series, just the Berg, uh, I mean, I could go on.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: All written in, first person. yes. Third person for the male point of view, the hero point of view, other points of views. But for the. Females, they're, they're all written in first person, we discussed that last week. So if you haven't listened to last week, go ahead and listen to that. there still had to be some, like you said, core belief

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: that she did not have to change who she was as a writer

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: in order to get published.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: Someone was going to pick her up.

Matt: Yep. And that's just, I think that's just the marching orders, right? If you're listening to this thinking about how do I really go down this road? You have to make a commitment to who you are, to who, what your voice is, and you've gotta stick to that. That doesn't mean you can't take advice. It doesn't mean you can't take criticism and feedback and, and again, refine your craft,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: have to know what your voice is.

You have to know what you, what type of a writer, what type of a, an author you are.

Christina: Yeah, and I think if you're in the pursuit of either self-publishing or, getting published with a traditional publisher, I think you do need to take into consideration, know who you are as your voice, how are you going to present? Whether that is first person or third person, whether that is deep point of view, whether that is, how you tell your story. One of the things that we talked about with Kristen that we, we just briefly discussed, it was, not a significant moment the conversation, but the epilogues,

Matt: Hmm

Christina: decided she was going to have these. epilogues.

Matt: mm-hmm.

Christina: Back in the day when I was reading, uh, know, epilogues, we were lucky if we got one, you

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: if you got one, it was a couple pages long saying, da, da da da da.

And they lived happily ever

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: But with Kristen's, you see into the future. That this couple is solid and they are going to make it, and here's them doing this or that, or whatever. And it's always something that's tied to the story itself. So it just makes it that much more full.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: it also makes the ending not feel as abrupt.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: of these stories, it was like the author couldn't wait to get to the, and they were together and they're happily ever after the end,

Matt: Yep.

Christina: And you're like, ah. Not just left wanting more, but it kind of feels abrupt of like

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: there's no more

Matt: And here's the,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: the picture. Storybook wedding, and that's it.

Christina: so, so the idea that she knew who, who she was and how she was gonna lay out her stories. So, I would encourage listeners to, if you don't know who you are, already, explore that. are things that you like from other books that you're like, okay, I'm so gonna do that. And that also means if you're reading a book and going, ah, I'm always cheated out of a good juicy epilogue, write along epilogue.

That's who you are. It all depends on what your voice is. And voice isn't just the first person, third person, that kind of thing. It's how you tell your story.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: is what kind of story you're telling. And I'm not talking. genre I am talking, the feel.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: you making people happy as they read?

Are you making them laugh, making them cry, making them feel tense, whatever.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: make them feel uncomfortable with who they are. No, I, you laugh, Matt, but, some of the classics that's they're written to make you feel uncomfortable

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: to kill a Mockingbird. know? Yes. It's a great story and it's one of my all time favorites, but it makes you uncomfortable,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Uh, Huck Finn another one that, it makes you feel uncomfortable. It's not just a boy and a black man going down the Mississippi River

Matt: Right.

Christina: So, yeah. Who are you a writer?

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: those things into consideration, and I think that would help the belief. I think

Matt: Sure.

Christina: if you know who you are build up that belief. But let me tell you, we didn't ask this question of Kristen and maybe in a future podcast, if she comes back, she will, she'll answer this, but I wonder how many people told her to give up. I wonder how many people said to her. really wanna do this?

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: getting these nos? And I think anybody who has had a dream has gotten that kind of feedback. They don't mean to be mean or rude or make you

Matt: that they're trying to protect you.

Christina: they're trying to protect you. But that is dream stifling. And so, you've gotta have more belief in yourself.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Get a little bit of that chutzpah that says, mm, uhuh

Matt: Oh, this is who I am. This is what, what I was meant to do.

Christina: am meant to do this and I don't know how it's gonna happen.

I don't know where, when you know who I'm gonna meet.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: And sometimes it does come down

Matt: I,

Christina: meeting one person or another that just makes something click.

Matt: yep. Yeah,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: so I loved, I loved that aspect of spending time with Kristen and just getting to kind of explore that a little bit. And I think it, it segued into this, 'cause we talked about doing an episode around believe in yourself, right? And this was like the perfect kind of segue. We couldn't have scripted it any better.

But I want to talk a little bit about what we are going to look forward to here in the near future. Which is something we're really referring to as resistance fiction.

Christina: Yeah, this is where it, it first came to me in an article and I believe it was written by Britt Marling, who is the writer, creator of the OA murder at the end of the world. I

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: Her writing the stories she tells the, the TV series. it was, I think she did an article in the New York Times or something like that, and it was an opinion piece brought up this term resistance fiction

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I was like, what is that?

I don't even know. and so I looked it up. And resistance fiction the idea that all fiction either reinforces the status quo. rebels against it.

Matt: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christina: And so we're gonna explore what the idea of that means. uh, pre uh, recording Matt and I were bouncing stuff back and forth, book titles and,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: and TV and that sort of thing.

So one of the obvious ones is Star Wars.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Resistance fiction

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: going against status quo. That is showing that back in the seventies, you have to remember the seventies. That women could be but a commander. A general a person. Yeah, a person who is. Leading rubble forces. so and in fact in, in the, franchise itself, it's, we are the resistance.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: So yeah, definitely resistance fiction. Something like how to lose a guy in 10 days or what is

Matt: Yeah. I lose the guy in 10 days. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Christina: Hudson, Matthew McConaughey movie. I

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Status quo. But something like you mentioned 10 things I Hate About You because I think the two films were off of, Shakespeare's

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: the Shrew in some ways, but I would consider 10 things I Hate About You resistance fiction

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: it goes against the status quo.

It goes against what norms had a teenager doing.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: During, when was that filmed? Nineties, early two thousands. Somewhere in

Matt: Yeah, so.

Christina: So you kind of can see. Resistance fiction. So what we thought we would do with this, because it's a a topic that, Matt and I are not experts on.

I'm not even sure that there's, there's an expert out there than, to, find the person who coined this phrase and. We thought we would wrap it around one of the, the books that was listed, as resistance fiction. And it's a book that's been popping up

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Since,

Matt: not sure why, but it seems to be popping up a lot lately.

Christina: Lot lately. And it is called, uh, parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. in fact. The first time I ever heard about this book was in season two of the OA

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: Brit Marling, and I think that's where she got the, well, it got the idea to put the, the book title into season two. It was just a brief thing and almost if you blink, you might miss it.

And I don't think meant it to be anything

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: other than, a book that she liked that she wanted to put, put in the series.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: that I know what resistance fiction is, and, and you know her mentioning that, I do wonder if she put it in there because, this is one of those resistance. books. And in fact, of things that I came across actually kind of that this is the preeminent fiction. This is where whoever coined that phrase, kind of came up with it.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: thought we'd read it, discuss it, bring someone on to discuss the book. Octavia Butler herself is passed, so that's, not gonna be possible to talk to the author herself.

Matt: It's fine.

Christina: But yeah, so we're putting it on your radar now. We will let you know at least a week in advance, like, okay, next week we are going to be doing resistance fiction, but man, I have to read the book first and make sure that we've got, some good content and, find that person, to, to have on, to, help us discuss it and stuff.

So we wanted to put it on your radar, on your plate. If you want to follow along and, read Parable of the Sower by Octavia

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: uh, write in with some thoughts and questions. If you have already read the book and have a lot to say about it, and the idea of resistance fiction makes perfect sense to you, let us know.

Tag us on

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: media. Send us an email. Go to our webpage, leave us a voicemail.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: Yeah,

Matt: Well, I think even, even getting to talk a and align it to, how do you write resistance fiction?

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Matt: what are some of the ways that you can, make your own story and even look at your own writing and go, is this. Upholding the status quo or challenging it,

Christina: yeah,

Matt: and how do I, if my intent is to challenge it, how do I do that?

Christina: yeah.

Matt: So we can, we can talk a little bit about how that works too, in that context.

Christina: Yeah. And in the context that Brooke Marling was talking about, it was she is always writing resistance fiction because she is a, a feminist, but she weaves it so intricately into her stories that you don't even realize, know, and she talked about why she's attracted to, science fiction. Um. Uh, that area was because she could create things that are not the norm

Matt: Sure.

Christina: order to tell her stories. So, yeah, it's, I think it's gonna be a really interesting topic. Like I said, it's not one that's really talked about. so yeah,

Matt: Yeah, I'm excited.

Christina: to read the book too.

Matt: I'm excited. I think it'll be good and, uh, we'll, we'll have a lot of, a lot of good discussion around it, so

Christina: Yeah,

Matt: forward to that. But we'll definitely, like, like you said, we'll give you plenty of warning that it's coming and then we'll have a good old conversation about it.

Christina: But you can start now. Start reading it now,

Matt: Yep,

Christina: Reach

Matt: yep.

Christina: us if you have, gem you'd like to drop us,

Matt: Yep.

Christina: you want to be in the show.

Matt: I am sure you can find it at your local library,

Christina: Yes.

Matt: maybe it's very popular right now, so who knows?

Christina: Yeah, it is, it is. I

Matt: Might be harder to find.

Christina: you I wanted to do that, like I kept seeing it pop up everywhere in

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: and a lot of people are saying it's prescient to our times.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: again, uh, I think that's part of why I'm excited to read it. I wanna, see what somebody predicted in the, I believe it was written in the nineties,

Matt: Yeah,

Christina: so.

Matt: let me see. Oh look, parable of the sower. I'm in my local Libby app , and it is,

let's see here. I can place a hold.

Christina: Was it checked out?

Matt: One copy in use and 29 people waiting.

Christina: 29 people waiting.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: dear.

Matt: So I put a hold on it. So we'll see. I'm number 30 now in line.

Christina: it say what? What year it was published?

Matt: 1993.

1993. 

Yes. So there we go. We'll take a look and, uh.

Christina: Yeah,

Matt: read it and we will talk about it.

Christina: everybody can't get it right away, I mean we can wait and discuss. People have had a chance to read it, so won't, won't be in the next couple of weeks for certain.

Matt: Nope. We'll give you some time.

Christina: yeah, give people time to read it. Maybe we'll do it towards the end of the season

Matt: Yeah. There you go.

Christina: a good chance to, read it.

Matt: There you go.

Christina: Cool.

Matt: All right, well that's gonna do it for us . So again, thank you for listening. As always, we very much appreciate that. And if you wouldn't mind leaving us a review, you can do that in our website. You can do that on Apple Podcast. You can do that anywhere you get your podcast. But also share it with a friend.

Share it with somebody who hasn't listened before. Share it on social media, put it out there. I'm sure there's some people that would love to talk about resistance fiction with us.

We'll, we'll come and chit chat with you. 

Well, very good. Thank you again, my dear. As always, have a wonderful, wonderful rest of your week, and until next time, keep on creating.

Matt: Get your voice out there because that's where it belongs. I.

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