Author Spotlight: Kristen Ashley

Author Spotlight: Kristen Ashley

Matt: Welcome to another exciting episode of Write Out Loud, the podcast about all things writing, creating, editing, and storytelling. I am joined, of course, by the illustrious, ingenious, and irreplaceable, Christina.

Christina: The alliteration,

Kristen Ashley: Hi,

Matt: that's not the half of it. That is not the most exciting part. Today we have the distinct honor of hosting a literary powerhouse whose storytelling has captivated millions around the globe. She is a New York Times and USA Today best selling author, with over 90 romance novels to her name, translated into 14 languages, and has sold more than 5 million copies worldwide.

Her prolific body of work, Includes beloved series such as Rock Chick, Colorado Mountain, Dream Man, River Rain, Chaos, and Wild West MC. So beyond her literary achievements, she is a trailblazer in the industry, seamlessly blending self publishing with traditional routes to make her stories accessible to a wider audience.

Her dedication to her craft and her readers is indisputable. Evident in every page she writes. We are thrilled to have Kristen Ashley with us today to delve into her creative process, discuss her latest projects, and really explore the experiences that have shaped her remarKAble career.

Kristen. Welcome.

Christina: Woo!

Kristen Ashley: everybody, and what a really nice intro. Wow.

Matt: I, it wasn't a lie when I said, we're very excited to have you. So, it's just, it's, it is an honor. So, and I know Christina is just, fangirling like crazy.

Christina: oh yeah, I'm, I'm trying to hold it all in here, I'm trying to be cool.

Matt: Well, cool. We are going to start off with just a few kind of starter questions. So I'm gonna kick it over to Christina. Let's take it away and give it what you got. Oh,

Christina: like many authors, you were called to tell stories. You had characters in your head that were just dying to get out. I've read that and, please tell us if this is correct, that you were Would write story after story, submit to New York, this was pre Kindle pre, even I think Sony readers, um, and you just were being, turned down by New York because you wrote in first person and generally romances aren't.

In first person. So can you explain or tell us a little bit more about that writing journey? What that was like, made you continue to submit? I mean, gotta be like a knowing, a belief in yourself, something. So can you tell us a little bit about your journey?

Kristen Ashley: Well, I think that, I'm just a writer. And I, I, from a very young age, if I'd kind of understood what my brain was telling me, I would have. I would have known that I was always a writer. People tell me that they would love to get letters from me because I would just write these long, really entertaining letters to family and friends or thank you notes. And I started to write, I used to tell myself stories to put myself to sleep at night and I was a romance reader from a time like I was 12 years old. So I would start like a romance book in my head and I would kind of remember where I ended when I would drift off to sleep and, and then the next night I would start up there and just keep going through, keep telling the story in my head.

And so by the time. And this was all before even personal computers. I mean, that wasn't even a dream to have a computer in your own home. So when computers and laptops and, uh, when I finally had the capacity to make it easy and not, do typewritten pages or having to write it by hand, just let loose and started writing.

And of course, The dream is to be published, and this was before the internet really, so I did all of my submission research at the Denver Public Library. So I went through these tomes and tomes of books to, to research all the publishers. What they published. All the agents and all the agencies as well. And everybody had a different way that they wanted you to submit. Some publishers didn't take submissions. You had to go through an agent. Someone would want, I went to Kinko's. I don't even know if there still is a Kinko's anymore. But I would go to Kinko's and I would create my submissions and I'd send these letters to people.

And it actually wasn't the first person. I just don't think I it's hard. It was back in the day before independent publishing, there was, there was a very, very strong locked gate, to, to authors. And, so it was just hard. I did have a couple of agents write to me and say, I think there's something here, don't quit. I was never going to quit. I'm a writer. And and I can't say that having so many rejection letters or spending and hundreds of dollars to send these submissions, uh, didn't hurt. And always getting rejected or completely ignored didn't hurt. But I was never going to stop writing. just, I was, it wasn't going to happen. I finally did, when the indie craze started happening, and it was actually super easy to publish a book through Smashwords and KDP, uh, I didn't want to do that because, there was all this You know, that was considered vanity writing or, those weren't the real writers type of thing. And so, so I made one final submission to an agent in Denver who went to Purdue University, which is my alma mater, and only, Only, represented romance, and I also had it in, because I had a friend in the industry who introduced me and said, you have to read this woman, you have to, represent her, she's great. And she, I sent the submission and she rejected me within like half an hour. She couldn't have even read it.

Matt: wow.

Christina: Wow.

Kristen Ashley: going to do it. So I thought, at this point I have like 25 books written. I didn't stop writing through all this and this lasted a decade, over a decade. So I just thought, oKAy, well, I'm just going to do it myself. And I talked my husband into letting me quit my job. I was a charity executive. We made, about what splurges we could have. He was going to have good coffee and I was gonna get my hair done every six weeks. And,

Matt: Yes. Ooh.

Kristen Ashley: joking because and I said, just give me a year and then I'll look for another job. So I'm just going to get my website together. I'm going to look into the social media thing and all the kind of marketing behind it.

 He designed my covers and I didn't even have an editor I just started kind of a little bit cleaning up these books and dumping them on Smashwords and KDP and I would sell maybe a book a week, maybe, maybe. And then I had a blogger Marisa's book blog, I had a blogger, uh, review my book really positively.

She reviewed the gamble and I woke up in the morning and I looked at my KDP numbers and I'd sold like 15 books. And then I looked up the next day, I think it was another 15 and the next day it was like eight or something. And I thought, Oh, well that, that was nice. And then the next day was 15 again and I'm like, oKAy. And the next day it was like 2000

Christina: Oh,

Kristen Ashley: and the next, I mean, and it's just, and then it was just. I mean, it was because I had published all those books, so they had other books to go to,

Christina: Right.

Kristen Ashley: so they were just readers were just, I mean, I was selling tens of thousands of books a week.

Christina: How many books did you publish at that time? How many were up?

Kristen Ashley: At the time that it hit, it was probably a good, most of like the Rock Chicks and the Colorado and the Dream Man. So

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: 15, 20 books that I had written at that time. And so then I was publishing. Like one or two books a month because I had them and then everybody thought I could publish like that. They got angry at me when I had to start writing them before publishing them But I don't I don't know What turned I mean, I I i'm like you, you know back in the day romance was only in third person I like to write in first person because I really want because my writing needs it. I mean, it's a stream of conscious. You're really in the heroine's point of view. So I want to, really take my reader and make my reader either feel like they're her or, or really, really get her. So that's why I used first person. But there's another part of it, and I don't want to talk for 15 minutes, but there's another part of it that when, and it's true, all the stereotypes, if a door closes, another one opens.

And so I was, I was kind of writing in the, in the 80s, 90s romance style, I'm a third person, what I wanted a publisher to read. And when the publishers kept the agents kept rejecting me. I thought, why am I writing what they, what I think they want? This is constraining me. Why, I, I, I don't, if they're not, if they don't want it anyway, why am I writing what they want?

I'm going to write what I want to read. And so that's when the rock chicks were born. That's when I was like, you know what? I'm throwing all the rules out the window. I'm just going to write what I want to read. Because I'm going to be the only one reading it anyway. Laughter

Christina: Honest to God, though that was the best advice you could have given yourself

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: honestly, when I did discover you, I, I breezed through the dream man series at that point chaos hadn't been out yet. So I went back to the rock chicks, the mountain series know, and all of the others that were out at that time. And I did go back to the ones that you had written in third person and I had trouble getting into them. as I said to you before getting on the podcast, I wasn't a first person gal for romance. So, know, it surprised me then, but it also clicked with me that this was your voice and that, the other ones that you had written in third person. know, maybe just didn't have that same zing

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: got when reading, your books. And that I will say is the one that I absolutely tell every single one of my clients, every single reader's talk, writer's talk I give that you have to keep your voice. voice is the most important thing. know, and if you have an instinct about a story, you got to go with it. It's

Kristen Ashley: Absolutely. Yes.

Christina: how did you, I mean, you did say, was your voice and no one was going to read them, there had to have been another little voice in your head that kept saying, but you're never going to get published and no one's going to read these, so how did you, again, keep going and just say, oh, well, people are going to read them.

What did you, maybe, maybe the better question is. When you were getting those 2000 downloads, and then the next day and the next day and the next day, was there a part of you that said, Oh my gosh, this is happening now?

Kristen Ashley: No.

Christina: No, it didn't.

Kristen Ashley: No. I, I, I lived for years after that thinking that it was all going to be over.

Christina: Really?

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. I did. It wasn't until my publisher, my editor at Grand Central Publishing, Amy Pierpont, called me

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: and said owned the win, the first in the Chaos series. I the New York Times bestseller list. And I'm like and I said, Oh, that's great. Just like that. And she, she was, and she was like uh, you just made the New York Times bestseller list. And I said, Oh, that, uh, yeah, that's cool. I, she was really flabbergasted, obviously, uh, about my response. And then later I went downstairs to get myself a drink and I opened the refrigerator and I thought, shit, I just made the New York Times on the cello!

Oh my god, I'm just staring at the door of the fridge like, Oh my god, and it was like a completely delayed reaction. And, and I think that was the moment when I thought, this, this might be real. This isn't some figment of my imagination, or, in the flavor of the week. It's, it's been years, and, and I've, I've hit these, all these different milestones, and so now I believe.

Christina: Yeah. So what, what was the timeframe? Uh, I'm sorry. I, I just don't know from when. You started publishing, let's say, because we know it's about 10 years before you hit the self publishing button. But how many years was it from the self publishing to own the win making New York Times?

Kristen Ashley: Started, I started to publish in earnest. I, I published a couple books through a government program in the UK called You Write On. so I started publishing in 2008, but I started to seriously independently publish in, in 2012. And then Own the Wind was released, uh, uh,

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: So it took a couple years

Christina: Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: for it to

Matt: I think it's just, it's, it's such a fascinating thing, right? And we just got done with two episodes about talking about imposter syndrome and

Kristen Ashley: Mm. Mm.

Matt: journey. And there's a couple of pieces, right? I think one, you've dealt with some of that, right? Cause you were, like you said, you were like, this is just going to evaporate at some point.

Like this is. Maybe you felt like it was a flash in the pan or something like that. But, but the fact that you had such determination and tenacity and still do right, like going through this whole journey, like you just continued to go at it when, when that mentality of, it doesn't matter, I'm going to do this for me,

Kristen Ashley: Right.

Matt: I'm going to write for me.

Cause it's what I want to read.

Kristen Ashley: Mm hmm.

Matt: it just, I hope that as you're listening to this, you take that to heart. You've got to have that mindset.

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Matt: Right. You've got to think about it in the terms of do it for yourself. Do it because you enjoy it. Do it because you love it. And if it comes to you, success comes to you, then great.

Kristen Ashley: Right. I, I, I always said Prepare for failure.

Matt: Hmm.

Kristen Ashley: Especially in writing. Don't expect success. Don't Life is a hustle, and selling books is a hustle too. You just have to keep going at it, and you just can't expect that you're going to be the next J. K. Rowling,

Matt: Kristen, Ashley.

Kristen Ashley: Kristen Ashley, or

Matt: I'll say it.

Kristen Ashley: or,

Matt: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: know, because you probably aren't going to be.

Matt: Mm hmm.

Kristen Ashley: because you love to write. And then when you write, you have to write what you love to write. You don't have to worry about what a reader is going to write, or what a publisher is going to want to publish. I I, I need to, I need to memorize this quote, but E. B. White said, always write for an audience of one.

Matt: Hmm.

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Matt: I love that. Hmm.

Kristen Ashley: quote, if you build it, they will come. Readers will, like you, with the, with the with the Ghost Reincarnation series, which is in third person, those were the books I was writing earlier, hoping that a, that a publisher would want them.

So you saw that right away. This kind of isn't her.

Christina: yeah,

Kristen Ashley: know, even though I love those books, I hadn't yet found my voice yet with those books. And so, The Rock Chicks and Dream Man and Mountain and Chaos, all the ones that came after,

Christina: and

Kristen Ashley: are.

Christina: I will read them because in, in part of the reason I had picked those in the beginning, not only because they were third person and I really wanted to read you but also because I'm fascinated with the all things spiritual, ghost reincarnation, all of that stuff. So it, it was usually my cup of tea, but again, so eventually I am going to read them. But I'm just having too much fun with the, all of the other series that you're doing right now. Um, I, I think something that you said is, know, really important to mark again, is that, if you, if you are writing for that audience of one Readers can actually feel

Kristen Ashley: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Christina: you're not liking what you're doing, if you are writing something to trend, to get

Kristen Ashley: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha.

Christina: that I, as readers, I think we can feel that. And that's why, as soon as I read, your dream man series, I'm like, oKAy, I get it. I'm a fan. I'm on board. Reading all the rock chicks, I mean, there's so many iconic characters that I, I just don't know how they would live in another voice. They just wouldn't one of the other things that I love about your books that make them so unique specifically for readers, and I think this is another thing that. Maybe you can speak to is your epilogues. You give us a monstrous epilogue where as a reader, I feel like I so know this couple is forever. There are going to be no breakups, no, no, maybe some bad times, but you know what, they've, they've got it together, so you know, is that something also that you did intentionally because that was something you wanted as well?

You wanted this. It's, epilogue to, to give all the details.

Kristen Ashley: yeah, I I, as a romance reader, the, back in the day, an epilogue was not a given, sometimes it would be really short, and especially when you get those books that you love, and you fall in love with these characters, need to, I felt, I wanted to tie it up in a bow. And that, that isn't, that isn't a saying I said.

I had a wonderful reader write me a fan letter and say, I, I, I feel very safe in your stories because I know no matter what you're going to tie it up in a bow. And I thought that's exactly what I do. You know that they're going to fight over. Him not taking out the garbage, but that's not going to be the end of them.

And then they'll end up, making up in all sorts of great ways. But, but yeah, so that's what I, I don't want any, I don't want any niggling questions. Uh, but I also want to give a sense of, what normal is going to be like for them. Because you go through the drama of whatever's happening in the actual novel. I like to settle them down. And

Christina: yeah,

Kristen Ashley: yeah, so.

Christina: I said, it's, it's like a reassurance that this couple is going to make it. There are some stories that I read that, it ends, maybe no epilogue, maybe like you said, a short epilogue. just feel like, Hmm, are they secure? Are they really,

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: they've been fighting this whole entire book and finally make up at the end.

And, 

Kristen Ashley: Yeah, yeah.

Christina: that would be another point too, that I think you do, purposefully is conflict. A lot of stories, tend to have an inner conflict within main couple. Yours tend to be an outer conflict once they resolve their You know, initial, whatever it is. So is that also intentional?

Cause I kind of feel like, again, when I read your stories, it is about the couple gets to their kind of point of no return, like you do believe that they're going to be together forever, but they still have things going on around them. And I've always viewed it as, you writing it as. It's us against the world now. Like we're together, we're a team, going forward. Any other conflicts, like you said, they might argue about the trash, Tabby but you know, uh, the rest though feels more like, oKAy, it's us against the world, there's the outer conflict, there's other things going on. But they seem to be like this face against the world.

And I think that's something that. is actually missing from a lot of romances. So was that also very intentional?

Kristen Ashley: Well, I think that there's three, three things that went into that. First I don't, my characters tell me what their story is going to be. So I go in not having really any clue. I just follow where they lead. the second is that I think in some of my earlier books, the conflict between the, the hero and the heroine lasted a lot longer. And I don't want to, throw shade or anything, but I'm 56 years old now,

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: and I think I've lived enough life where I've learned how to communicate and not let things So I can't even, like, make my characters fake it, and

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: for very long. It's like, they have to be mature adults and actually speak about their feelings and work things out.

And then, But also my Aunt Barb, who is Aunt Bette from Motorcycle Man, is based on her. And she's,

Christina: gotta be. Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: yeah, yeah. And she's a no nonsense chick, and she reads everything I write. she said, can we just have one where they get together? In the beginning. And we don't have any of those misunderstandings or any of that kind of stuff. And, uh, the idea for Wild Man was born. Where they did, at first they had, a very big conflict. And there, there was a, like a breakup and lots of drama. And then all the conflicts came at them. And, and maybe it is that I feel comfortable in that zone. Maybe it's at my age or maybe it's, because, I've been through a lot of drama in my life.

And I don't feel like throwing the drama in the books. But maybe I, but maybe it's simply that, because I'm writing, what? I like it's maybe that I prefer to see how the couple as a team are going to face You know somebody getting sick or somebody dying or you know a serial killer

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: the midst or whatever it is

Matt: one does,

Kristen Ashley: Yeah So so so I I really don't know and I I I'm i'm a weird person because I I don't ever question it as long as it's working I'm going with it

Matt: that's awesome. That's awesome. It, I just out of curiosity. It's a little bit just getting into, kind of your, your mindset. Is there ever a genre that you're like, I've been doing romance for so long maybe. I just really want to write a horror novel or, uh, I don't know any other genre, right?

Like, is there ever that, that point where you're like, Hmm.

Kristen Ashley: Yes, absolutely. And

Matt: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: it into a romance novel. So, uh, so I started to really get into thrillers

Matt: OKAy.

Kristen Ashley: and, and mysteries. And so I started, I wrote, uh, so I started my Mist of Pine series. So they're kind of, they're kind of thriller novels. They're not the whole kind of Barry Cotton Malone type of thriller.

They're more, they're more like the, uh, of the, uh, Maybe a little Riley Sager, a little, a little bit, uh, a little spooky, a little scary but, but really rooted in the I'm not nowhere near as good of a thriller writer as Steve or Riley, but, but there's, but then, but it's all couched in a romance, so I get to dabble in those things,

Matt: OKAy.

Kristen Ashley: and have the serial killers.

Matt: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: know, have them running through the woods trying to escape the serial killer and all that kind of stuff.

Matt: Nice. Nice. OKAy.

Kristen Ashley: same thing with kind of like this weird, eerie, like, years long mystery in Too Good to Be True, where the, where the house, all sorts of death has happened in this house.

And so there's, all these murders are very famous, or all these deaths are very famous in this, in this house. And the, but the couple gets together while the While the house is speaking to them, they think.

Matt: Nice. Nice. Perfect.

Kristen Ashley: but, but I, I think that's what I would always do. Even if I wanted to do a straight up romance, I would, I would put a straight up mystery. There'd be a romance and it would be a big part of the plot. I

Matt: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: not,

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: I

Matt: It's just part of your DNA. You're like, it's just, it just is.

Christina: now, again, you have so many books out there. I'm a fan, I haven't caught up on them all. Then the Mr. Pine series is one of them. And at the beginning, I wasn't going to delve into them because they had been, like tagged as mystery thriller. And I thought, oKAy, I've got to set that aside. But then everybody started saying, Oh no, there's romance in it. There's romance in it. And then it's like, oKAy, no. Put it back on the burner. We gotta, we gotta read those. So, yeah, I, I, I think I get that with, I, I can't see you writing anything without the romance, I mean, yeah, there's just, I mean, there's just so much.

I could

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: some of the other questions, like, started to talk about your first person, but the other is, and we've actually talked about this on the podcast before,

Matt: Mm hmm. Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Christina: I should be telling the audience, gotta thick, you got to take either first person and write the whole thing in first person, no flipping heads and dual points of view. But you do that and you make it work, is that another one of those Kristin isms where that's just the way it comes out? 'cause you've got the heroine in first person and the hero in third. So how do you make that work?

Kristen Ashley: Well, I think it's a Kristenism. I like that word. I, I personally want my readers to always, there always kind of be a little mystery with the hero. And if you're, if, so the point of me writing first person is for my readers to be in the heroine's head. And I, I just, I don't want them in the hero's head.

I want them to, to feel just slightly removed from the hero. for there always to be a little mystery. Even when he gives you things. Even when he's, he's spilling his guts. There's just something that you always feel like you could keep learning about him. Or that the heroine can always keep learning about him.

Matt: Mm. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Kristen Ashley: So, so, they, if, if one came to me in first person, which I really think that kind of hell would freeze over if that happened at this juncture I would write it in first person. But he would really have to let, let me in. And, and that's never happened so far.

Christina: I, like I said, Matt and I, when we did we actually did an episode on point of view. I know I brought it up there that, Aight. You are such a rule breaker. And I mean that in the most delicious and

Kristen Ashley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Christina: uh, kind of a thing, but with your work, I can really just, Let go and go, know, and yes, it is a Kristenism, take it, keep that word

Matt: Yes.

Christina: you're the only one that you're the only one so far that I've seen able to do specifically that thing where you do the first and third, but it makes so much sense now it makes absolute sense to me because in that, uh, podcast that we did on point of view, said, there are reasons there are always going to be reasons why you keep person.

OKAy. Then that means you're keeping the mystery of other people out of that person's head. That's what you see from that person's point of view and only that person's point of view. Yeah, so that's just that just makes it cherry on top

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah, and in fact I was uh talking to one of my clients and told her that I was interviewing you and of course she fangirled out as as well.

But I asked her if I could quote her on something because she said and she, of course, I, I don't know if you know this, that I, I think the, the reading world and the writing world call you KA, as an abbreviation. So she writes that my thing with KA from the beginning was that she was, she combined romance with suspense and humor and even women's fiction. And it was like, there were no more rules. About what a romance, uh, book is, she goes on to say, uh, truly it was incredible, incredibly liberating to read her books. And she says back in 2012 when she started you and that just really does encapsulate everything that I wanted to bring you here for was because you do break all of the rules, but they work for you.

So And I think that just hearing, your side of the story, I think it all comes from, and you may not call it a knowing I think it's a knowing. I think you knew your voice. And even though New York was rejecting you, I don't know if you can, Rearview it this way, but it was kind of a blessing because you still got to keep your freedom and still got the success and then had New York coming to you saying knock knock knock, you know

Kristen Ashley: yeah.

Christina: what can you tell me a little bit about that transition?

Was it difficult for you then to work with New York did it?

Kristen Ashley: No, not really, I was really pleased. I was really pleased to, to, they have a lot of, uh, experience, obviously. I was, I was pleased to work with, with an editor, uh, because I didn't really have an editor before. Has written the perfect book ever, you can always keep learning, and you always, uh, Keep refining your craft and you can't, you, mean, I guess you could do it if you read, read, read, read, read, as well as wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote, but you also, but I don't believe you can't.

I think you can't do it in a vacuum. You need, you need reviews, you need editors, you need, you need. people feeding back. That doesn't mean, I don't, I don't have beta readers. I I don't take every single comment to heart, but there are some things that, that hit and you, and, and. And you think, yeah, yeah, that's a valid criticism or or I should think about that next time or I should write that book or or whatever.

So for me, it was just it was for the first time being able to work with the team and see how they marketed and see, what the book covers. They, had a real problem with book covers. But and so I actually don't have a contract with anybody in New York now. And I kind of miss it.

I always liked to have at least one series going with New York. But they're just being so careful about picking up anything right now. It's just really hard in New York and that's oKAy. I'll keep doing indie. I, 

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: it's a lot more freedom and I have a team together, so I'm not in that vacuum anymore.

So I have my, a team of my own, but it's just nice. I mean, and I'm, maybe it's because I'm a social person. I don't know. I love books. I love writing. I love this industry. So even just knowing people and, and meeting new people Was, was great for me. 

I did have a, know, uh, I had to get over not having control over every little thing. And then eventually I, uh, started to need to have approval of my covers in the contracts. But. that's kind of the only little hiccup we had.

Christina: so That's another thing too that I did want to talk to you about is your covers because again, you know that going against the grain Breaking all the rules, when you started publishing about that time was what we termed the man chest cover where it was like, the head cut off and, the man chest. But you always had what I call an icon cover. So, a picture of, some sort of. image or icon or flowers or, like the, I the Colorado mountain series before Grand Central recovered them. But what, got you, where did, where did your cover ideas come from? What made you choose to do that? That route?

Kristen Ashley: Well, I don't, I personally don't want anybody to tell me what my characters look like.

Matt: Hmm?

Kristen Ashley: So you, if, if at all possible, never see a face on any of my covers. So, so that was the big thing with Chaos, and the, and the Dream Team when Grand Central recovered them. They did me well with the dream team, because they did have a chesty one. But they only kind of put their jaw in there, so they didn't do the full face. And, and it might just be triggering from when I was in high school and I read romance novels and they were all the bodice rippers with, the woman in the flowing dress and the man without a shirt on and stuff and I would carry my books to class. In, in, in rural Brownsburg, Indiana, where they probably read a lot of romance novels, but it's definitely the Bible Belt. And so they're probably like, no, I want everybody to be able to, not that, I, I don't have any problem, with, with enjoying what I enjoy and letting everybody know, but if it's an issue for you, I want you to be able to read my book and nobody say, oh, that's, uh, such and such. Type of book. So, but I really, it's more, I want my readers to decide what, who my characters look like for them. And even if they feel like changing their hair color or whatever, it's not something they like.

Christina: yes. Oh,

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: I actually had a conversation with Suze Brockman in her kitchen arguing with her about what her character looked like because in my head it was

Kristen Ashley: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Christina: No, he

Kristen Ashley: Yes.

Christina: No, I, I,

Kristen Ashley: I never, I, when I have conversations with readers, or they send me pictures and they're like, this is Tackk, and I'm like, it's not. But if

Christina: No. 

Kristen Ashley: is for you, I'm not going to say a word about

Matt: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: be your Tackk, oKAy.

Matt: You're like, it's not, but that's cute though.

Christina: Yeah. I get that. Actually, that is so funny because I am in one of the, the rock chick, uh, groups on Facebook, just cause I like hanging out with the other readers and stuff like that. And someone posted Huggers picture I was like, that's totally not what I pictured.

This is what I pictured, so and then it was just, it was fun because there were some people were like, Ooh, that's a good one or that's a good one, and everybody was. kind of had their own ideas, so I think, again, looking back on your your writing journey, your evolution, it really does seem that you were making these choices very purposefully and intentionally, and it really worked. I just, I, I just think that's just so great. Let's leave it there because I think that's some advice that a writer

Matt: Mm-hmm

Christina: you know, can really take away. 

Kristen Ashley: What I would, what I would leave it on is my intention, bottom line, is to never put out a shitty book. Never put out a crappy book. So, so all of these are very purposeful and, and, and there's an intent behind it. And the intent is that I want my reader to, to love the book. I mean, even if it's not their favorite book they've ever read or even their favorite book of mine or their favorite book in the romance genre, I don't want them to, to finish it and think, meh, that was an oKAy book.

Matt: Hmm.

Kristen Ashley: I want them to think, yeah, touched me or I laughed, I might not read it again 15 times, but

Christina: yeah,

Kristen Ashley: waste 5. 99.

Matt: Mm hmm.

I escaped.

Kristen Ashley: my money's worth and it was a good book.

Christina: yeah.

Kristen Ashley: So that's

Christina: can honestly say there is not one Kristen Ashley book that I have read that I've not walked away from it, just enjoy,

Kristen Ashley: good.

Matt: Yeah

Christina: it's,

Kristen Ashley: glad.

Christina: Maybe I didn't like him with dark hair and I put him a blonde,

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: just my

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: But I, I, Matt has been listening to me nonstop since you and I started communicating with the possibility of you coming on. I just, I just know he's laughing at me. 

Kristen Ashley: Haha

Christina: from

Matt: hmm.

Christina: knowing yourself, who you are as a writer, knowing what you want off of the covers, that's, just something that, maybe you grew into, you got old enough to, whatever reasons you think I think it was because you were Kristen Ashley and that's, you were meant to be,

Matt: Mm

Christina: You know who you are in the industry and your journey was not, a mistake or a wrong turn or, you

Matt: hmm. Smooth sailing.

Christina: yeah. Smooth sailing. Great segue,

Matt: This is a segue, right?

Christina: great segue.

Matt: So we're going to pivot because it is getting to be that time and I want to, I want to make sure we get this conversation in, but let's be really super clear right here, right now we are getting into spoiler zone.

Christina: yes.

Matt: So if you have not read smooth sailing, if you have, if you have no idea what's coming, if you don't want to know what's coming, you should turn the podcast off now.

Kristen Ashley: Uh oh

Christina: Oh,

Matt: And if, and if you do, or maybe you don't care about spoilers, whatever, but join us for the rest of this conversation. But again, we are going to give it just a few more seconds. If you don't want spoilers,

Christina: Yeah, because

Matt: then you better stop listening.

Christina: I can't find the, the pause

Matt: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Christina: button.

Matt: got five more seconds. Ready? Four, three. It's right to the left.

Nope, not that button. OKAy. Yeah, there you go. Two, one.

Christina: OKAy, so, I'm not gonna start with the big one yet.

Kristen Ashley: OKAy

Christina: because I want to get into the story a little bit with Hugger and, uh, Diana. When did you know Hugger existed?

Kristen Ashley: Well, Hugger was introduced in uh, I believe it was Dutch Black Story, Wildfire, the 1001 Dark Nights novella.

Christina: Yep.

Kristen Ashley: And I had no idea who the heck he was. He was just a next gen chaos. And I was, going to do the Wild West MC series with him. And, uh, but he fascinated me and I knew for, for certain, whatever was, whatever was up with that guy, it was going to be the first Chaos book in the Wild West MC series. So, so I, he, he kept his secrets from me, his paternity,

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: about half, halfway through, through me, didn't even know who his dad was.

Matt: Hmm.

Kristen Ashley: through writing Smooth Sailing. I'm like, I knew it was one of two guys.

Christina: OKAy.

Kristen Ashley: and then when he told me, I was like, no, let's make it the other guy.

Christina: Oh, no!

Kristen Ashley: He's a lot easier to handle. That one

Christina: Yeah,

Kristen Ashley: the bad one.

Christina: yes, yes, I was gonna, who was, let's, let's talk about who the one you didn't choose.

Kristen Ashley: It was Crank, so Crank was the, was the president that Tack 

Christina: yep, 

Kristen Ashley: essentially had the coup over. So, and he was a, he was a jerk, but he didn't do all this stuff.

Christina: that, that here again, spoilers, turn

Kristen Ashley: yes, yeah, yeah,

Christina: was, I mean,

Kristen Ashley: yes,

Christina: dropped when

Kristen Ashley: yeah,

Christina: and I went, oh,

Kristen Ashley: yeah.

Christina: God.

Kristen Ashley: yeah, and it was kind of writing and reading some I was rereading the chaos series so I could familiarize myself in the world I'm really really And so I was I was I was reading particularly free When she was finally dealt with and all of the terrible things he does in the last hour of his life he's he's assassinated essentially I He was not a very good man, but I could really understand, in understanding that, I could really understand Hugger's struggle with, with who his father was, because we all do that with our parents,

Christina: Right.

Kristen Ashley: know, and I think, I think girls tend to have more of an issue of, am I going to turn into my mom?

If my mom isn't a great person, then that's not something you want to do. If she is, the great, the same thing with boys, they worry about, or they, want to be like their dad or they really don't want to be like their dad. And, uh, and for, for hugger, he really didn't want to be like his dad, so, and I, I see that and I, and I see why it's, he struggled with not only going to chaos to, to patch in, but also once he was patched in, understanding his place there.

Christina: Right. And I think that also makes it interesting, too, that you introduced him Dutch and Jagger's stories. I mean, that kind of brings it all together.

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: and, um, when, when it was revealed to, I kind of looked back and went, okay, this makes a lot of sense as to why he was so close to his mom,

Kristen Ashley: Yes.

Christina: so insistent. on how women are treated. Like, that

Kristen Ashley: Yes.

Christina: and I'm sure that's where you started to go, hmm, who is Hugger? You

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: he caught my attention because he was

Kristen Ashley: Yes.

Christina: quick

Kristen Ashley: Yes.

Christina: that talk

Kristen Ashley: Yes.

Christina: this is a guy, that we're like, who

Kristen Ashley: even know who he is. Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: what is his story?

story,

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. So I mean, that was just, Oh God, that's so interesting that you couldn't decide until midway through. But I

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: storyline of mystery because the whole book I was trying to guess, and I, I, I mean, I, I was trying to think of all of the, old time, 

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: I knew it had to be pre, you

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: incredible. oKAy. One of my all time favorite books is Cheyenne Tabby's story is at Own the Wind where we were

Kristen Ashley: Mm hmm.

Christina: Big Petey and he became this grandfatherly, fatherly figure. So, the big question I have is why, why did he have to die?

Kristen Ashley: know. Well.

Christina: I, I,

Kristen Ashley: We could ask for a PD, but sadly he's dead now. When the book started coming to me the first chapter started coming to me kind of understood what was going to happen with Hugger and with Diana with Diana's situation at college, what didn't come to me was big PD.

So imagine my surprise when I sat down to write and I type, I'm typing, who, who, what point of view we're going to be in. came to the fore in my head and so, so I, and I knew right then that he was ready to go. I kid you not, I went in every direction I could possibly go in to see if he was ready to go. to try to stop this from happening. Because Tex from The Rock Chicks is never gonna die. I don't care if, I live for another 75 years and he's 175 years. He's just never gonna die. He's never gonna really get older than his, right now, 69, 70, 71 years old. He's just never going to ever, ever go away.

Christina: he's always gonna have a girl gang that he

Kristen Ashley: Yes, yes,

Christina: bombs

Kristen Ashley: yes, yes,

Christina: You know

Kristen Ashley: yes.

Christina: all going but protecting them all.

Kristen Ashley: Right. Yes, definitely. So I was kind of surprised that Big Petey, because he was such of chaos. It was really, it was, he was always, and it wasn't quiet, he was the one that came forward when Carissa was in a, in a, uh, custody struggle with her husband. I mean, he's, he, he was very there. So, but he was just ready to go. I don't know why I hated it. I, I, I sobbed. The entire ending of that book from the, from the moment Chaos decides to open a branch in Phoenix. And how, how they gave that to Hugger. And, and everybody leaving. I mean I could get choked up right now just talking about it.

When they all left. And he doesn't like to be touched and they all left the, the, the meat room and they were hugging him. It was, I was a mess and then we go into the next chapter and, and Petey in his sleep.

Matt: Hmm,

Christina: Yeah

Kristen Ashley: um, so I, I was, that was a very difficult, that was a very difficult And actually that, that was, I, I liked the episode, epilogue of that, but it was a melancholy epilogue.

Matt: hmm,

Christina: Yeah

Kristen Ashley: And if, if truth told, I don't know, I mean my dad died last year so I mean there could be little things that I'm not, not processing in my own head that I was processing through this maybe? I don't know.

Christina: No,

Kristen Ashley: saying goodbye fictionally, but, but yeah, I, I didn't want it to happen to either but Big Petey did.

And every time I tried to guide the story out of it, cause he kept foreshadowing it throughout the book.

Matt: hmm,

Kristen Ashley: He just pulled it right back.

Christina: Yeah, I think I had a sense, when you were talking just now about Big Petey came and it's going to be his point of view, I actually did pause when I was reading that and going, why are we in Big Petey set?

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: are we in Big Petey set? But, you, it made sense because, Hugger's mother was basically saying you've, you got to take him in. and so I thought, oKAy, maybe that's why, but I think there was something niggling in my brain because the minute Hugger answered the phone in the middle of the night, I knew,

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: knew. But I think you, the thing is, I can't say as a reader that I'm mad because I think it really did work me for the story you gave him such a beautiful, if not.

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: Send off.

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. I

Christina: together for it. The, the pageantry, and it was, it, it brought me something to my mom's best friend passed away and we went to her funeral and we actually joked, this woman was. and just gregarious and a joker and everything. And in fact, one of her kids actually said, I'm just waiting for her to sit up in the casket and go, ah, you're all, it's all a joke or something like that. But as, we pulled away and we're headed out of town, the other side of the road had about 20 motorcycles and, her son was part of an MC. they were, we were told later that they were coming to, give her the, MC send off. So I really did truly appreciate all of the, the pageantry

Kristen Ashley: that word. That's a good path. That pageantry is a good word.

Matt: hmm.

Christina: because he

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: how you put all of the people that he impacted, know, in the front row, Tabby, Carissa, I mean,

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: I mean, everybody, he touched everybody. I'm going to ask the one thing that I didn't think I was going to ask, but I'm going to ask it cause I think you've probably thought of it too. Now there's no one that's going to fill Petey's shoes, but someone in the MC is going to be taking on that Big Petey role. Do you think about that?

Have you thought about that?

Kristen Ashley: Actually, when, when I knew that we were going to start to, we were going to discuss Moosey sailing on this podcast it kind of hit me that maybe Big Petey was being Big Petey in, in the sense that he's a, he's just that kind of guy that now that I am, oh now I'm going to get emotional, now that I'm moving into the next gen of a lot of my books,

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: the, the rock Avenging Angel and these, Chaos guys and, and thinking about putting some other characters that I've introduced along the way that finally giving them their HDAs in some of these other series that I'm, I'm working on.

Maybe Big Petey was stepping aside, so I could enter this next gen I haven't really thought of that. There's some older, there's some older members in the resurrection MC. And, and, or, I mean, it might be interesting to see somebody like Hound become,

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: I mean, he's a little rough around the edges, but he's no less loving or love, lovable or sacrificing of his time.

So, and he, he kind of already does that. Whenever anything happens, like when there's a project to be done, he's there destroying the kitchen so you can,

Matt: Mm-hmm

Kristen Ashley: your kitchen, so, I don't see Tack doing that because I see Tack more as kind of always going to be in the background helping to guide the club and making sure that, faithful to what, what the mission is cause you, Tack totally guided the way to Hugger finding his way in, in being

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Needed, it needed to be Tak. It

Kristen Ashley: yes,

Christina: doing

Kristen Ashley: yes, yeah.

Christina: of who, Chu was

Kristen Ashley: Yes. Yeah.

Christina: represented. So it needed to be Tak,

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: I, I get that what you're saying is, Tak is, the figurehead

Kristen Ashley: Yes. Yes.

Christina: and

Kristen Ashley: Yes. Yeah.

Christina: I, can see where Big Petey, uh, he's not going to take that, that role on

Kristen Ashley: No, no. You need somebody that's.

Christina: yeah, he's not watching the club like Big Petey.

Big Petey watched everyone in the club

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: up when he knew he was needed and, 

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: Take people. And you're right. Hound,

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. I'm very,

Matt: Hmm. Mm-hmm

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. I mean, if you, if you listen, if you read Tack's eulogy to Big Petey,

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: That's who that role has to be.

Christina: Yep.

Kristen Ashley: know, it has to be the, the father and the brother and the grandfather and the, and the uncle and the babysitter and the warrior. I mean, not a lot of men can fill all those shoes, know, the, the wise man and the co the voice with common sense in a, and so I love tax eulogy.

I mean, I sometimes just stop and go read the eulogy. Just

Matt: Hmm.

Kristen Ashley: cry

Matt: Aw.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: So, 

Matt: Awesome.

Kristen Ashley: yeah.

Christina: I, I, I just think you just did such a beautiful job with it. That's why I said I can't be mad as a reader. 

Kristen Ashley: Some readers are mad, but I knew that was going to happen.

Christina: I'm sure,

Matt: can't make everybody happy.

Kristen Ashley: No,

Matt: Can't make everybody happy.

Kristen Ashley: that's what, what happened with the story. Because if you're, if you're slowing him down and talking about his aching joints, and 

Christina: yeah,

Kristen Ashley: how believable is it going to be? Not

Matt: Hmm.

Kristen Ashley: novel has to be super believable, but you, you can't pull people out of,

Christina: yeah.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: that, that you gave him a peaceful way to go instead of, him. dying, saving the club

Kristen Ashley: Right. Yes.

Christina: sacrificing himself to save somebody, whatever. I think this was more honorable

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: was, you know what, this was his, this is the way I saw it. This was his last job.

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: Uh,

Matt: Last ride.

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: last ride to know, helping someone out and,

Kristen Ashley: Well, I think

Christina: him that

Kristen Ashley: I think in the journey, I mean, he was, he was definitely embedded in the, in the, in the crank chaos that, that Tak took them out of and he picked his side in that war. 

Christina: Right?

Kristen Ashley: I think whereas the rest of them thought the war was won Petey knew that there was one more loose and that was Hugger.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: And so for him, that was when the war was when that was when he could be at peace. His club was at peace. Everybody's having babies and and happy and, know, financially secure. And and that one last loose end, the last promise that he made. I like his last ride when he's riding away from Huggers,

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: gravestone after he reports in that, that he finally did it.

I think that's a, that's beautiful. And that's how we all would kind of like to go,

Matt: Hmm.

Kristen Ashley: To have, our life in order and to be loved and be respected and not have any, any, anything that

Matt: That fitting ending, right?

Christina: He

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: with

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: He

Kristen Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: Yeah.

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: I love that.

Matt: Well.

Kristen Ashley: Yeah.

Matt: to you for hours quite literally. But I want to give you a chance if there's anything else that you'd like to promote or just share 

Kristen Ashley: No, I mean, we talked about Smooth Sailing, which was my most recent release, so thank you for talking about that. I mean, I do have the next Mystic Pines is coming out, and on April 15th, The Woman Left Behind.

Matt: nice,

Kristen Ashley: If you haven't yet jumped into that, it does have romance.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: OKAy.

Christina: them, I think that's actually what your, you might like those. Just for the tone. They're, they very much remind me of like a Twin Peaks vibe.

Kristen Ashley: Oh, I'm glad, I'm glad you said, cause that, I mean, that was my, I kind of morphed Twin Peaks with Northern Exposure. To, to build this town in a rural Washington state. And so, but I wanted to kind of lean more into the kind of creepy twin pe teak. So I'm glad you said that because that was stuff. When I, I have one friend who reads my work as I, I write it.

And I was sending it to, to her and she was like, What is this magic? What are you doing? Because it's so not what I. would normally write, so it's definitely faster paced and yeah. Yeah.

Matt: Nice. Well, very good. Well, again, we are absolutely just honored to have you here. We enjoyed the conversation. Really, really, really fantastic time. You are welcome back anytime

Kristen Ashley: Thank you.

Matt: that you'd like to join.

Kristen Ashley: back.

Christina: Yes.

Kristen Ashley: That'd be

Matt: Well, again, Smooth Sailing's out, so please go buy it. Just because you like good books, you like good stories, right?

And Kristen Ashley does not fail to deliver, ever. So, it's awesome. Uh, well, thank you for listening as well. We appreciate that. Share this with your friends. Anybody and everybody just, your great aunt Edna, she hasn't listened to us yet. Just send it to her. She'll love it. It's fine. Find us wherever you find your socials at Write out loud pod.

And, uh, we'll, we'll see you next time. Just keep creating.